MINOR LEAGUE/PROSPECTS Thread

You're right, because a mathematician would actually sit down for a couple minutes, look at the numbers, and realize that wasn't true.

 

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/11/23/2583097/los-angeles-dodgers-organization-discussion

Sickels is doing the Dodgers next.

 

I expect Lee to be 1 and Reed to be 7 or 8. but yeah I like Reed alot, hope he can actually start

 

OK then explain to me how Sellers and Ellis are good players. I don't want any of these turd polishing stats either. Give me the league average and tell me how each of them exceed that. I don't care if he's better than juan castro or if sellers is better than ellis or vice versa. I want to know how they are above average compared to starting second basemen in the MLB.

Let me know when your couple of minutes are up.

 

Ellis is a OBP guy and not much else and Sellers is a Eckstein type who has to maximize every drop of talent he has through hard work and determination. Neither player has had a full season to prove anything so I won't discount them until that happens IF of course that happens.

 

Lol, I just got done saying how much I think Sellers sucks. And I never said Ellis was "good". You claimed both were hacks. Only part of that I disagree with is Ellis. It takes an ignorant person to sit here and claim Ellis is a useless player when anyone who either had watched Ellis or is willing to look at "turd polishing stats" (stats that are directly related to which teams win consistently or lose consistently, btw) can attest to the fact that he's a fantastic defender. His UZR and runs saved stats aren't by accident. WAR and such stats dont happen to reward the best overall players by accident. They're more complete stats that you're simply not comfortable with, and therefore wont use - which is hilariously ironic... because the guy who this forum likes to bash the most, Colletti, is another "Old School" adherent. And we can see how far behind the curve that's put this team.

I dont think Ellis is good. I think he's a solid signing due to his elite defense and his likelihood for an ~750 OPS. I also think it's idiotic to get so worked up one way or the other about this deal. If you're stating that Ellis is a hack, you're ignorant, or for some reason don't think defense is an important part of the game I suppose.

 

So you are comfortable with saying that Ellis or Sellers are above average second baseman?

That means all around, hitting, fielding, base running.

You are saying Ellis or Sellers are better than 17 other second baseman in the MLB?

Yet you call me ignorant, that is ironic.

 

What exactly do you call below average players? I call them hacks, and both fit the bill. You essentially agreed with me. You don't need WAR or UZR to help your case.

I have said before sabr stats don't prove anything that conventional stats don't already prove.

Which is of course that both players are below average second basemen

 

Ned being "old school" has nothing to do with the Dodgers sucking. His inability to tell what a good baseball player is and Frank McCourt are the reason this team is bad.

 

Also lets take a look at the key players from the Cardinals.

Do you need sabr stats to show that Pujols is a great player?
How about Carpenter or Lohse?
Or that Molina, Holliday, Jay and Berkman had great years?

Enjoy sabrmetrics for what it is, a reinforcement of what any avid baseball fan already knows. Don't put too much stock in it.

 

I essentially agree. I just think Ellis is being underrated because most of his value isn't on the surface, and that's what the metrics help show.

 

But why lock up a mediocre player for two years? And why the option for a third year? Why pay the mediocre man 8Mil? Why jump to sign a mediocre guy like this so early in the off-season? If you wanted a mediocre 2Bman, why not wait until ST when there would be a bunch of DFA guys desperate for a contract? Or, if you really wanted mediocrity, why not use your mediocre rookie infielders? If they don't pan out, and give that mediocre performance that you are looking for, you could always pick up a truly mediocre infielder for cheap during the early season.

What's the point of building a mediocre infield anyway?
I want veterans that produce and rookies with huge upside.
Anything less is not good enough.

The Dodgers must always kick ass.
Every game
all season long.

 

This entire post is anti-Ned's way of GMing, thinking and being. LIKE!!!!!!!!!

 

^I just wonder if Sabean secretly flies down here, and meets Ned in a dark corridor deep beneath the stadium - dressed in a trench coat and fadora - talking in whispers ... "Sign Jones... sign Uribe ...sign Ellis..." For you see, he is Ned's Deep Throat.

 

You use this argument all the time, and it's ridiculously flawed. Sabermetrics aren't for proving Pujols is good, and the fact that you make that argument shows you don't understand the concept. The idea behind them is the find market inefficiencies and exploit them. Matt Kemp had a great season, no shit, we don't need to see his wOBA to know that, but what sabermetrics do help us realize is that judging from his BABIP, he's very likely going to be worse in 2012 than he was in 2011. They showed us after Clay Buchholz led the league in ERA in 2010, that he was almost certain to regress. They show us that a guy like Felipe Paulino is going to be a pretty productive pitcher at some point in his career, and that Jeff Karstens and his 3.38 ERA this season is never going to happen again. There's countless examples. These stats are ridiculously informative in terms of what you can use to judge a players abilities, and how likely a player is to continue his success, or lack of success, for that matter.

But no, we don't need them to tell us Pujols is great. Good point.

 

Yeah...whatever...you need to severely manage your expectations during this stretch of ownership limbo or you're going to be completely miserable the whole time.

 

Actually, my expectations are reasonable:
Maybe Nedster re-signs Aaron Miles - who did a great job for us last season. He's the one geezer who did well. He won the job at second as far as I'm concerned. He probably will want more than 500k - and I'm sure, being an old guy, he will want two years and a chiropractor. But I could see him playing 2B and Ellis filling the Carroll role to some extent. Geez - Ellis right away becomes a really expensive utility guy - but Ellis would get plenty of playing time, because Miles would need to sit down and rest - and Ellis will be playing a lot of 3B, too. Uribe plays if he hits - but I don't have any confidence in him at this point. I would just plan on another big vacation to the DL. So, a big infield rotation would work for awhile. Oh, I wish the Dodgers had a young hitting 3Bman we could start breaking in about now. That would give us all some hope. A real masher. That's the answer - not this constant shuffle of infield scrubs. And, BTW, I'd be willing to trade some pitching for such a prospect. Actually, anything short of the K's on the team. Now, is that enough of an infield to win the division? No - a new owner must invest. But a few changes can at least keep the ship from rolling over and sinking early in the season.

 

During any stretch ownership, for that matter. No team ever has stars at every position.