FEDIT POLITICS Thread

Before we get into the costs to provide universal health care, I think it is important for me to ask two questions first. Number one is, do you agree everyone should have access to health insurance, or, really, to health care? That is, do you think it is a fundamental right and that nobody should die due to lack of funds for health care that exists, but is expensive? And number two, do you agree we should consider the output in addition to the input to determine the efficacy of any proposed plan?

If you agree with the first question then the intuitive response becomes who pays for it. Before we get into the histrionics over tax rates, the number one thing I would suggest is to reduce our defense budget. With no border disputes or imminent threat of war, simply reducing our defense spending could free up billions of dollars annually. To supplement this and to properly fund universal health care, there would also need to be an increase in (income) taxes. But if the poor are exempt from this rise in tax because, well, they’re poor (I hope that’s self-explanatory), then the real question is the redistribution of this cost to the remainder of the population. And I don’t think there’s a ‘right’ answer to that. However, if you ask me if I am willing to pay an extra $1,000 annually to help make sure the poorest Americans have basic health care, then my answer would be yes. I am well aware many others would say they could not. Others would simply not want to. Once again there is no right answer. But if you agree health care is and should be a fundamental right then there is no way you can expect to give everyone access to health care and expect everyone to pay for themselves. It is just not viable.

And my second question was more so rhetorical. The answer is obviously yes. I ask it because we must remind ourselves of the many potential benefits of universal health care. The real question isn’t how much will it cost us, but rather, how much will it save us over x amount of years. It is the same reason one would install solar shingles on their home or choose to go to graduate school. It is an expensive investment but the idea is that it will pay for itself over time. And in this case it would save us on per-capita spending (standardized for age) on health care, generate a more productive workforce, and stimulate greater economic growth. This will positively impact everyone and the country as a whole. Nearly all cost-benefit and cost-effectiveness analyses on universal health care point to positive results.

I apologize for the long response for what appeared to be a simple question. I felt it was necessary to include context and details to fully address the question.

 

This is one of the most prominent issues with free market health care and why the GOP’s plan is flawed. Price gouging is a common tactic used to inflate profits in the health care industry. Examples such as Mylan (EpiPen) and Turing Pharma (Daraprim) illustrate the inherent failures of free market health care. The proper functioning of a free market depends on a lot of things being in place, like low barriers to entry, perfect information, elastic supply and demand, and so on. Most of these fall apart in the market for health care as health care is an inelastic good. That is why reducing costs is much more important than price elasticity, which is what the GOP keeps pointing to with HSAs –saying that if you’re not spending your own money, you stop caring whether you’re overpaying. That is true for most goods, but doesn’t appear to be true for health care, at least not in any way that can inform policy. If you or a loved one needs lifesaving care, you will pay everything you have. That is an open invitation for providers to charge as much as possible and, like you mentioned, routinely bankrupt individual payers.

 

you can't say socialism is a buzzword when you have avowed socialists running for office all over the country
just saying its a phantasm is disingenuous when you know that EXACTLY what marxist leftist want
and yes tax cuts because taxation is theft
you don't have a right to my money period
and you don't have a "right" to the services of another person including health care sorry
how you can think the gubberment run health care is the answer baffles me to no end
they have fucked up everything they have ever touched
i want to take care of people who need it but the problem is the corruption and abuse that occurs in every entitlement
i don't want to hear how small the amount of money is compared to the military etc audit that shit
nothing should be free if you have the ability to work you need to contribute to society somehow
and social security is not an entitlement
as far as the influx of migrants i feel very strong about taking care of Americans first
when every city has tents on the streets we need to address that before ever entertaining more poor but thats the democrat stance
bring em in
i firmly believe if the other entitlements were cleaned up the money would more than be there for indigent health care

 

I don't think an extra $1000 from the likes of capn, diablo, yourself, and others is gonna be enough to cover the estimated 34 trillion it would cost over the course of 10 years for universal health care.
Not interested if feelings about if it is a human right or not. I just want to know how we cover the cost.

Disagree wholeheartedly about cutting our military spending, I am always in favor of increasing it.

 

mmmmhmmm OK you go with that.

then we're way closer in thought than either of us have yet expressed.. because the remaining topics are clearly way more important.

 

Umm are you riding on @TAFNAC libertarian coat tails? To that extremist nonsense I offer that "I" drive on roads and highways that 'someone' paid for (my taxes); I enjoy my house not burning to the ground so I'm down to support the Fire Dept (Tom thanks us for our taxes); likewise I prefer mostly law and order (go figure) so I'm down with paying for the OC Sheriffs (my taxes again)

Now while I myself think that the IRS should have been throttled back decades ago myself, and that 250,000+ pages of tax code is essentially 249,000 pages of DC condoned corporate theft. I also have agreed with numerous other Liberatarian aspects that @TAFNAC espouses, however overall it is bullshit to state outright that "taxation is theft".

Exactly the enjoying all of the privilages of being an American citizen, in enjoying the 'American way of life' indebts one to the concept of paying taxes.

Before moving along was it really your intent to defend this poorly conceived notion?

 

Ah man this is so true.. and yet also false in the same breath.

It's truth that OUR US of A gubberment has an open hostility towards its citizens, promoted through DC corruption, which is coupled with a festering incompetence that "F"'s up nearly everything we allow it to touch. This is broken.

The contrast is that healthcare for all has been, and is currently being, successfully run in dozens of countries, ALL of whom charge citizens less than we're already paying in our current fucked up system of gouging

Today we spend the most and get nearly the least healthcare due to the open atmosphere of medical gouging.

Something needs to change. Of course your first statement didn't get any less true. It's a problem that needs addressed.

 

Which was me agreeing by stating WTF is wrong with demanding some form of CCC, or other public labor, if one desires benefits.

(and all our Lefty friends howl at me for thinking so)

 

when pushed all those who say its NOT socialism they advocate will state but we ALREADY have socialism
stop being deceitful and just say you want more of the money hard working people have for your policies
at least that would be honest
#taxationistheft

 

Sorry BDK but you're parroting #'s that were grossly marked up merely to argue. Look deeper and note that our entire national debt is less than helf that nonsense $34Trillion that the GOP nitwits keep parroting. So stop yourself from being fed BS data is the best first option. Next the devil (and not @LAdiablo ) is in the details..

 

Dude what do you think about ZERO taxes for anyone making under ... let's go with $200k?

Paid for by not repatriating hundreds of billions of dollars of offshore corporate tax evasion. Imagine if companies above $1B actually paid taxes? Instead of permitting GE to hire 100's of former IRS agents to keep it from paying a single cent in taxes with the mid-1990's. THAT is fucked up. Ask the Alphabet/Google tax team why they didn't pay the 35%, 25%, 20%... 2% taxes after sheltering billions through Bermuda/Bahamas/Ireland or any other entity willing to rewrite their own tax codes.

YOU got screwed by that shit. I got screwed. Our kids are going to get screwed worse paying the bills for our generations set of DC thieves.

Little guys get screwed daily.

Big guys screw us daily.

Did you care?

 

Nice @rube tangent there boss.

The simple point is that NOTHING is going to costs AS MUCH AS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY HAS SPENT FOR DECADES.

Nothing. Not healthcare. Not the military. Not anything.

No division or reduction is required of anything except by the idiots at Faux News

 

of course i care and wish that lobbyists had no part of the equation
unfortunately around 500 rich lawyers are making the laws
and somehow their wealth continues to expand
nothings changing until that part of the equation changes
if the fraud were removed that would be a start
but as it stands its well within the laws written by the thieves

 

Care to elaborate? As in why?

I mean we already spend more on our military than ANY other item in the budget.
Said budget for military spending is already greater than #2+#3+#4+#5 other country military budgets put together.
Were you not aware that for 20+ years it has been the USA habit of provoking war, wherever we choose, simply to use up munitions in order to buy more (to prop up the military industrial complex)

Don't get me wrong as I too want the strongest military on the planet. We've had that for a long long time. We've abused that power for a long time promoting democracy.

Most American's have virtually no sense of what a bully America is seen as to the rest of the world since they don't travel. At 30+ countries I think otherwise. We could spend 50% less and still outspend everyone else.

 

sign of a weak argument is blaming it on Fox news lol
do they overdue it sometimes? sure they do
is there ANY other media outlet on tv/cable that even attempts to give a conservative pov???
they are beating CNN/MSNBC combined in the ratings
i personally only watch Tucker and sometimes Baier but carry on w how they are the problem
you think their exaggerations or hyperbole compare to the lies pumped out by msm?
people are tired of being told what to think and the manipulation that goes w it
yeah it might not be "fair and balanced" but its light years ahead of the others in at least trying to give an objective pov
for sure they shine a light on the bullshit and hypocrisy of the left and it drives libs crazy
just look at the hysterical Trump madness on every other channel
not a peep when BO was POTUS and nothing about the lies and shame of the clintons
thats why people tune in to Fox
doesn't mean everything they report on isn't legit
unless you happened to be a screaming leftist pretending to be conservative lol

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight and that's a good one too.
When certain BS only appears in one location ($34T = Faux News) then one tends to associate the two together.
Wherever one gains their news.

If ANY other media had used a number within 1000% then we'd shrug and call it close enough. Of course the GOP has doubled down in their open support of whatever Faux News comes up with next and yesterday I took a call from the Mimi Walters campaign, having voted GOP for decades, that also parroted the $34T number. Umm OK sure. So now enough people are repeating it... still not truth.

I wish all of my Lefty friends, including your bro, saw me as a "screaming leftist" when in fact they all insist that I'm a Trump henchman Righty. No shit. NO ONE WILL ACCEPT ANY MIDDLE GROUND because they all are having too much fun pointing fingers at the opposite direction calling them all manner of nonsense.

Grasp that yet?
Care in the least?
Yeah no I didn't expect so...

 

OK apples to bananas is what you offer..

Note 1) BO as POTUS, did bow too low too often, however there were ZERO indictments of himself or ANY staff member for 8 years. Indictments under Trump are at 35 and rising and there is no sign of fewer future indictments as Trump surrounds himself with rats unaccustomed to scrutiny in the light of day. So too much bowing too low.. but an otherwise more ethical human.
Note 2) .."Nothing about the lies and shame on the Clintons" Holy cow did you not watch any TV that decade? Or short term memories are fused over? Never heard of Monica Lewinsky then? Never heard of the GOP trying to hold impeachment proceedings on Slick Willie? How'd you miss all those 'peep' show thrill hours of shrill howling media protest? And not solely from Faux News either, all media was reporting on it.

So BO avoiding scrutiny because he acted more mature and responsible than Trump? Everyone acts more mature than Trump.
So Slick Willie was exposed to impeachment procedings, even if you failed to watch. Or remember. America still remains as fond of Slick Willie as it remains disgusted with uber bkitch Hillary.

Remembering does make me the enemy.

 

Let loose the Kraaken!